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Thread: Should you need to pass a social media check to get a gun?

  1. #11
    Senior Member William's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beevee View Post
    I think you are missing the fact that Americans are born into this culture.
    Removal of guns worked in the UK and Australia because it wasn't seen as a priority by people when the legislation was passed to withdraw them from society.
    No, I'm really not that dumb about US history. I know that the USA as a country was born from violence, and it has continued being like that for most of its history. Being born into the culture is not used as an excuse for Saudis or Iranians for their abuse of their people, why is it different with Americans - is it just because it is a rich and powerful country, and we are scared of them? I'm not - my mum and dad have friends in the USA and I have met them - they are really nice people - it is just their society that is violent.

    And you are right to say that getting rid of any guns was not a biggie for Aussies and Brits - other than a few farmers (and a very, very few gun nuts) just about nobody kept guns - and certainly not hand guns. There were more guns per capita in Australia than in Britain, and the Aussie cops now carry guns - but most people had never owned or even held a gun. There is just no need for them in any society run by the rule of law. Sure some people hunt (but not many) and it is not difficult to register and control shotguns and single shot hunting rifles, and make sure they are locked away in gun cupboards and safes - separate from the ammunition. We have regular inspection of any guns registered in Australia, and only registered gun dealers can sell them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beevee View Post
    The US is different. There are probably twice the amount of guns held by people than the size of the population.
    Even if legislation was passed, people wouldn't comply and the law is only as good as the people who support it. In this case, they wouldn't.
    And the popular answer you are likely to get is that cars kill people if the driver is irresponsible enough to drive when not fit to do so.
    So, would you stop everyone from using a car because a few people by comparison were irresponsible?
    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't like guns either and I wouldn't be putting up a defense for not banning them on the other forum. But wishing for it and actually doing it are so far apart that there is no middle ground to play with.
    And yeah, I have heard all the popular answers at the other place - but that doesn't make them right. Cars are made for the specific purpose of transportation and they are equipped and optimised for that. To forbid cars because of human mistakes makes no logical sense - you can stab someone in the eye with a biro and make them blind, but that would not be accepted as a valid reason for getting rid of all biros - and I wont even mention kitchen knives. Guns have one specific purpose, and that is to kill or harm creatures - human or animal.

    Most of the time, I don't bother to talk about important stuff at the other place, because we all know what it has become since Trump was elected. But we can talk about all the problems of getting rid of guns from US society, and I can see the problems are mainly the attitude most Americans have towards their guns as a 'God-given right' - get rid of that 'right' and you can make a start. But none of that changes the unarguable fact that without guns, you cannot have gun murders - like its so obvious!

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  3. #12
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    Correct, but it's not me that needs to be convinced. It's obvious that criminality would be vastly reduced without the ability to maim at a distance. And that someone with a knife could possibly do the damage that can be done with a gun.

    But how can it be achieved when there is a heart and mind culture towards being armed, ironically, to defend oneself against gun violence?

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  5. #13
    Senior Member William's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    It is so good to see you post William haven't heard from you for a while. I hope you have been well. First things first you are one of my absolute favorite people in both forums. You are the most rational, intelligent, and most kind, and level headed person we have. I think you have intelligence well beyond your years. Age does not determine intelligence. I have a little sister who is about 15 now. When she was 4, I considered her to be more intelligent than most of the adults I have ever met, even at age 4. Intelligence is not defined by age it is defined by how a person puts things together and sees the world. You my friend score the highest on that chart in my opinion.

    Keep in mind this is not the other forum where you are attacked and belittled. That stuff doesn't fly here. I highly value your opinion and am grateful to have the chance to hear it.

    I am not familiar with your gun laws. Just never thought to research it. Are guns not allowed? It seems to me as far as what I know that in other countries they have guns, watch violent movies, play violent video games, but for some reason they don't have the same problems that we have here in the US. It seems to me that we are doing something very wrong here in our nation. I don't know exactly what we are doing wrong but we are.

    As stated in my post I don't really know the answer and I agree with both sides of the aisle. I can see how they are both right in certain ways. You are definitely not wrong. Nor am I right, but I don't have a definitive opinion either. I am unsure of what is right honestly. I myself am not a gun person, wont even be around one. But I try to look at all sides.

    That being said. It was so good to hear from you. I hope your studies are going well. Be well friend.
    Hi Just Another Person - it's equally good to hear from you, and I'm happy this place has survived.

    I don't hang out as much on political boards these days, because most of them are American, or have mainly American membership, and since Trump - many Americans have become complete right-wing ratbags. It's a pity because there are loads of totally cool Americans, but it is mainly the RWRs who are loudest on political boards.

    The simple case I am making is that gun murders and mass shootings are impossible without guns - like you don't have to be Dux of the school to know that. So the choice gun-loving Americans have to make is - do they love their gun rights more than they love their children (and other loved ones). But you see - if after little kids were slaughtered at Sandy Hook - Americans didn't get up in arms and demand the 2nd Amendment be amended out of the Constitution, then popular American values are so fecked up that you are never going to be free of mass murders. From where I live, I cannot see two sides to the question of whether kids can be safe at school - but there is a saying that we all make our way to Hell in our own fashion.

    And I'm sorry that this post is not understanding or kind.

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  7. #14
    Senior Member William's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beevee View Post
    Correct, but it's not me that needs to be convinced. It's obvious that criminality would be vastly reduced without the ability to maim at a distance. And that someone with a knife could possibly do the damage that can be done with a gun.

    But how can it be achieved when there is a heart and mind culture towards being armed, ironically, to defend oneself against gun violence?
    I totally understand what you are saying, except that no, you can't possibly kill 30-50 people at a distance within a few minutes with any knife!

  8. #15
    Senior Member Just AnotherPerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Hi Just Another Person - it's equally good to hear from you, and I'm happy this place has survived.

    I don't hang out as much on political boards these days, because most of them are American, or have mainly American membership, and since Trump - many Americans have become complete right-wing ratbags. It's a pity because there are loads of totally cool Americans, but it is mainly the RWRs who are loudest on political boards.

    The simple case I am making is that gun murders and mass shootings are impossible without guns - like you don't have to be Dux of the school to know that. So the choice gun-loving Americans have to make is - do they love their gun rights more than they love their children (and other loved ones). But you see - if after little kids were slaughtered at Sandy Hook - Americans didn't get up in arms and demand the 2nd Amendment be amended out of the Constitution, then popular American values are so fecked up that you are never going to be free of mass murders. From where I live, I cannot see two sides to the question of whether kids can be safe at school - but there is a saying that we all make our way to Hell in our own fashion.

    And I'm sorry that this post is not understanding or kind.
    You are not the only one who thinks this way friend. You are not wrong. Most of us here in America are kind of with you. I quit posting in the other forum for the same reason as you, and probably so have many others. I just swing by every month or two.

    I find listening to people talking about opening fire on immigrants at the border and mowing down children to be despicable. In the other forum that is an argument I cant win. I find that bringing civil war to our nation is bad, I find that killing every leftist in the country is bad. But those are the ideals of the other forum. But trust me, that small majority of wakos, does not represent the rest of us. But they most certainly are giving our nation a bad name.

    It was not even the people who elected Trump, he lost the election. It was the electoral college that put him in office. His bas is a small majority of people in this country. It is just that they are so vile, and so hateful, and violent natured that they appear to be more than they are. But they are not. They are just loud, and abrasive and stand out. It is like they are photobombing our nation LoL.

    Not only that there are lots of people at his rallies, so people think he has tons of people. But what they don't know is that those people are cult like and they follow him from rally to rally across the nation. So those people at his rally could be half of his base, who traveled from all over just to be in his shinning presence. It is really a cult like thing. But honestly fascism is taking over the globe. It has gotten its tentacles into many nations. As Noam Chomsky said Fascism could be the worlds greatest threat. https://www.nationofchange.org/2019/...-assange-more/

    The thing about my nation I cant attest for others is we have a criminal undercurrent. For instance drugs are illegal, but it does not stop anyone from getting those drugs. I don't see it much now because I live in the woods, Gods be praised. But, when I did live in the city it was awful. It felt unsafe. There were home invasions and shootings burgularies, all manner of personal crimes. I will tell you for certain most of those crimes that took place with guns, were not legal firearms. On many occasions people survived home invasions in our nation because they had a gun and were able to protect themselves. What do you do when you take away the guns from the law obiding citicens and the only ones left with guns are the criminals.

    I will say that most "mass" shootings seem to be done with legally purchased guns. But we have nearly 40,000 people per year killed by guns in our nation, I am betting most of those are with illegal black market guns. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...evels-cdc-2017 Although I am personally not a fan of guns. I do take this into consideration.

    When I lived in the city there was always an undercurrent of fear. I don't own a gun, so I wouldn't have any way to protect myself. Every morning when I would turn on the news I would hear of new home invasions, or robberies. It seems like those kinds of crimes were on the rise. This is the reason I like to consider all sides. That is just my personal experience.

    But 100% we should ban assault rifles. No one needs those. We should require everyone who legally owns a gun, to take safety classes several times per year. These classes can be used to evaluate if a person is a danger, and if they are remove that persons gun rights. Also the classes could teach how to lock those guns up so your kids cant have access to them, and wont be able to shoot up a school with them. There are a lot of things we could do. We aren't doing any of them.

    I don't know what is right. But we have a serious problem. It is complicated, but doing nothing is not an option.

    But it will be hard for you to get your point across to people like we have in the other forum. They are the kind that argue with you weather the genocide in Yemen is right or wrong. Well, not much you can say to a person like that. Your words of reason will be seen as a threat to their freedoms. But your view is not wrong. Even though I am not 100% on board, You are not wrong. You are seeing a big picture and a solution. It is legit, and good.

    But keep in mind we live in a country that is plagued with crime. Those crimes are often committed with illegal black market weapons. Here is a link to how many crimes we had in 2017 just so you get an idea. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...type-of-crime/ We cant stop the criminals from having these weapons. They will use them on the good people. If we take away those good responsible peoples weapons they will have no way to protect themselves. Criminals will be the only ones with guns. This is a real scenario. All over the US people go to sleep uneasy, because crime is rampant.

  9. #16
    Senior Member William's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    You are not the only one who thinks this way friend. You are not wrong. Most of us here in America are kind of with you. I quit posting in the other forum for the same reason as you, and probably so have many others. I just swing by every month or two.

    I find listening to people talking about opening fire on immigrants at the border and mowing down children to be despicable. In the other forum that is an argument I cant win. I find that bringing civil war to our nation is bad, I find that killing every leftist in the country is bad. But those are the ideals of the other forum. But trust me, that small majority of wakos, does not represent the rest of us. But they most certainly are giving our nation a bad name.

    It was not even the people who elected Trump, he lost the election. It was the electoral college that put him in office. His bas is a small majority of people in this country. It is just that they are so vile, and so hateful, and violent natured that they appear to be more than they are. But they are not. They are just loud, and abrasive and stand out. It is like they are photobombing our nation LoL.

    Not only that there are lots of people at his rallies, so people think he has tons of people. But what they don't know is that those people are cult like and they follow him from rally to rally across the nation. So those people at his rally could be half of his base, who traveled from all over just to be in his shinning presence. It is really a cult like thing. But honestly fascism is taking over the globe. It has gotten its tentacles into many nations. As Noam Chomsky said Fascism could be the worlds greatest threat. https://www.nationofchange.org/2019/...-assange-more/

    The thing about my nation I cant attest for others is we have a criminal undercurrent. For instance drugs are illegal, but it does not stop anyone from getting those drugs. I don't see it much now because I live in the woods, Gods be praised. But, when I did live in the city it was awful. It felt unsafe. There were home invasions and shootings burgularies, all manner of personal crimes. I will tell you for certain most of those crimes that took place with guns, were not legal firearms. On many occasions people survived home invasions in our nation because they had a gun and were able to protect themselves. What do you do when you take away the guns from the law obiding citicens and the only ones left with guns are the criminals.

    I will say that most "mass" shootings seem to be done with legally purchased guns. But we have nearly 40,000 people per year killed by guns in our nation, I am betting most of those are with illegal black market guns. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...evels-cdc-2017 Although I am personally not a fan of guns. I do take this into consideration.

    When I lived in the city there was always an undercurrent of fear. I don't own a gun, so I wouldn't have any way to protect myself. Every morning when I would turn on the news I would hear of new home invasions, or robberies. It seems like those kinds of crimes were on the rise. This is the reason I like to consider all sides. That is just my personal experience.

    But 100% we should ban assault rifles. No one needs those. We should require everyone who legally owns a gun, to take safety classes several times per year. These classes can be used to evaluate if a person is a danger, and if they are remove that persons gun rights. Also the classes could teach how to lock those guns up so your kids cant have access to them, and wont be able to shoot up a school with them. There are a lot of things we could do. We aren't doing any of them.

    I don't know what is right. But we have a serious problem. It is complicated, but doing nothing is not an option.

    But it will be hard for you to get your point across to people like we have in the other forum. They are the kind that argue with you weather the genocide in Yemen is right or wrong. Well, not much you can say to a person like that. Your words of reason will be seen as a threat to their freedoms. But your view is not wrong. Even though I am not 100% on board, You are not wrong. You are seeing a big picture and a solution. It is legit, and good.

    But keep in mind we live in a country that is plagued with crime. Those crimes are often committed with illegal black market weapons. Here is a link to how many crimes we had in 2017 just so you get an idea. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...type-of-crime/ We cant stop the criminals from having these weapons. They will use them on the good people. If we take away those good responsible peoples weapons they will have no way to protect themselves. Criminals will be the only ones with guns. This is a real scenario. All over the US people go to sleep uneasy, because crime is rampant.
    Thanks for that awesome post - I agree with nearly all of what you are saying.

    But while I agree that you can't stop every criminal from having guns - you can stop most of them from getting their hands on one. In the UK - where I grew up - (and much the same in Australia, where I live) nobody has hand guns, and very few people have shotguns, and you cannot get a license to carry a gun in public places.

    In the UK, even the police don't carry guns, so when a housebreaker goes about his business, he feels no need to carry a gun. Most burglars rob empty houses, but if he is interrupted by the homeowner - he simply runs away, knowing he is not going to be shot in the back. And more importantly, a criminal knows that he is not going to find hand guns and ammunition in any house he is burgling. Shotguns and hunting rifles are very rare and are required by law to be stored (separate from the ammunition) in secure, locked (usually steel) gun cabinets.

    Bringing in illegal hand guns is usually so expensive, and so much trouble (like you need underground connections) as to make it not a petty crim's worthwhile. Gun shops are few and far between and protected by law by enormous security - so that's not a ready source.

    But my total point is - it will be difficult, and it will take a long time, but it is not impossible to rid the USA of guns. All that is needed is for Americans not to be so scared of each other, and there to be the will to do this - not just the political will - but for the American people to value the lives of their children more than some imagined 'God-given right'. There is nothing to be proud of in having the right to carry a killing machine, and to kill 33,000 of your fellow countrymen each and every year.

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  11. #17
    Senior Member Just AnotherPerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Thanks for that awesome post - I agree with nearly all of what you are saying.

    But while I agree that you can't stop every criminal from having guns - you can stop most of them from getting their hands on one. In the UK - where I grew up - (and much the same in Australia, where I live) nobody has hand guns, and very few people have shotguns, and you cannot get a license to carry a gun in public places.

    In the UK, even the police don't carry guns, so when a housebreaker goes about his business, he feels no need to carry a gun. Most burglars rob empty houses, but if he is interrupted by the homeowner - he simply runs away, knowing he is not going to be shot in the back. And more importantly, a criminal knows that he is not going to find hand guns and ammunition in any house he is burgling. Shotguns and hunting rifles are very rare and are required by law to be stored (separate from the ammunition) in secure, locked (usually steel) gun cabinets.

    Bringing in illegal hand guns is usually so expensive, and so much trouble (like you need underground connections) as to make it not a petty crim's worthwhile. Gun shops are few and far between and protected by law by enormous security - so that's not a ready source.

    But my total point is - it will be difficult, and it will take a long time, but it is not impossible to rid the USA of guns. All that is needed is for Americans not to be so scared of each other, and there to be the will to do this - not just the political will - but for the American people to value the lives of their children more than some imagined 'God-given right'. There is nothing to be proud of in having the right to carry a killing machine, and to kill 33,000 of your fellow countrymen each and every year.
    Thank you William, you certainly do make good arguments. I like how you said even the police don't carry guns. That really says a lot. I mean a lot.

    This is definitely a discussion worth having. That is one of the problems no one wants to even listen to each other these days, or even try to understand each other. The more we behave like this, the deeper down the hole of no return we will go.

    Your point of view is welcome, and it most certainly matters.

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    William (08-13-2019)

  13. #18
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    Although the police you see on the streets in the UK do not carry guns, there is a specialised unit, S019, which operates from London, that does.
    They don't do normal police work but continually patrol London's streets and reputedly can be on the scene of a crime that requires their presence inside of 10 minutes, and usually sooner.

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    It isn't illegal to hate and "hate speech" is a highly subjective term. This is the problem I have with this concept. If a history of violent acts can be demonstrated then sure, maybe but speech is still theoretically free in this nation.

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    Administrator Gamewell45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
    It isn't illegal to hate and "hate speech" is a highly subjective term. This is the problem I have with this concept. If a history of violent acts can be demonstrated then sure, maybe but speech is still theoretically free in this nation.
    You make a very good point and yes speech is still theoretically free in this nation. I think that and the 2nd amendment are two of the most important ones used in our everyday lives.
    When you cuss a farmer, don't talk with your mouth full

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